Tuesday, March 22, 2005

Infidelity - where's the line?

I was intrigued by JaG's post that kissing a boy (or, in this case, a girl) would make her guilty of being unfaithful to her partner.

It got me musing. What constitutes cheating? Now, as a man that once judged that screwing an escort up the chuff was not an act of total infidelity, I suspect that I am not the best judge of this sort of thing. However, a drunken snog clearly doesn't count in my book.

Therefore, for the women readers, I thought that I'd give you a (tongue firmly in cheek) male view of what might be thought of as infidelity.

  • Thinking
    No, your man having wild fantasies about Sienna Miller is not an offence. Nor is thinking about Julie from Accounts. Or your sister. Even if he is making love to you at the time. Men are pigs, so get used to it. He won't mind if you think about Jude Law as he gurns away on top of you (except to wonder why you fancy someone less good looking than him- men are self-deluding fools, so get used to it). What is not allowed is to accidentally call out the wrong name at the inappropriate moment. Not because that's cheating but because it is bad form. And will result in all sorts of trouble.

  • Looking
    Ogling another woman is allowed (though one obviously shouldn't be caught looking at another woman). This rule is not affected by the state of undress of the other party. So eyeing up that young filly in a short skirt (and thinking impure thoughts) is no different to going to a strip club (and thinking impure thoughts). However, there is a rider: if the lady is naked, the man must have arrived at that situation in a group of people he knows well. Thus, it is OK to be at a titty bar with a bunch of mates - no impropriety there (just a bit of laddish fun). However, it is well out of order to have gone alone. That is just plain wrong.

  • Touching
    Now, this is where it gets tougher. There is an escalating scale. Essentially, the more erogenous the zone, the greater the threat. Double it, if the zone is bare... Add 50% for stroking. Double again for sucking. Triple if you are doing the stoking with an erogenous zone of your own. Thus, a stoke of the clothed bum is fine. A cup of the naked breast - you can get away with. However, a word of warning to all women - the grey zone extends pretty far in most men's books. In a lap dancing club (yes, I arrived in a group), I have sucked a nipple, stroked a bare bum, had a bare thigh rubbed on my (clothed) erection (NB this rubbing doesn't count as it was her rubbing on me - passive is allowed) but I would not consider it infidelity. That's quite some threshold...

  • Kissing
    Now this is one area that gives many people problems. Clearly, exaggerated air kisses are fine. Kisses to areas other than lips are covered under touching (note that lips are an erogenous zone and so you need to be very careful). Thus, lip-to-lip contact is fine. So what about a full-on snog - real tonsil hockey? Well, it clearly isn't infidelity in itself. But it is the intent that is the problem. A bloke doesn't stick his tongue down your throat unless he wants to shag you. No, it's worse than that - a bloke doesn't stick his tongue down your throat unless he is desparately trying to shag you (hopefully in the next five minutes). So why did I say earlier a frenchie didn't count? We have forgotten one key factor - alcohol. If he has had a few beers, malicious intent is removed... And that is why a snog is fine if you've had more than a couple of snifters. Unless, of course, it moves on to...

  • Penetration
    This is where it becomes crystal clear, I'm afraid. Any act of penetration with any appendage (finger, tongue, elbow, cock, amputee stump) is out. Kissing being the exception that proves the rule. So sorry, Bill but oral does count. Both ways. Slipping it in but not coming is not fine (again a Bill defence - "I didn't inhale..."). Get caught and you're busted. Live with it, men.
Which leaves the fundamental male question for infidelity. It's a bit like the age old philosophical debate about the soundlessness of a tree falling in the forest when there is no-one there to hear it.

  • Is it infidelity, if your partner never finds out about it?
Enjoy...

10 Comments:

Blogger JaG said...

*Is it infidelity, if your partner never finds out about it?
If your partner never finds out then you could say it never happened. I just like having everything on the table and being able to tell him everything without feeling bad about it. Guess I'm just too honest.

10:29 am  
Blogger An Extraordinary woman in a mediocre life said...

I believe that it is still an infidelity if your partner never finds out. Fidelity is less about having your partner know anything and more about a trust in each other.
xxxx

10:38 am  
Blogger Salvatori said...

I was joking when I wrote that... Of course it is infidelity.

But there is a serious side - I think that 80% of males admitted that they'd be unfaithful if they knew their partner wouldn't find out (and I suspect most of the 20% were lying...).

Thankfully (hopefully), I am past that stage in my life.

10:51 am  
Blogger An Extraordinary woman in a mediocre life said...

ha!, and they say Americans dont get irony... I was gonna use the excuse of being "not-quite-with-it" yet but cunning wee minx that I am, I'll say instead that I was overcome by the delights of your blog - an excuse and a compliment succinctly packaged..hehe
xxxx

12:33 pm  
Blogger Jay said...

It got me musing. What constitutes cheating? Now, as a man that once judged that screwing an escort up the chuff...
I'd say the "escort up the chuff" is not the same as an amateur. When you're dealing with a professional there's less emotional involvement. Still clearly indefensible behavior but not as bad as doing your wife's best friend.

infidelity.Thinking
No, your man having wild fantasies about Sienna Miller is not an offence.

Absolutely. Everybody wins when the libido is enhanced by good fantasy. I also think the chances of actual infidelity are much less if you and your partner have fantasies about other people while you're doing it.

.... What is not allowed is to accidentally call out the wrong name at the inappropriate moment. Not because that's cheating but because it is bad form....
Unless of course it's an act that you're enjoying together. If she wants me to be Jude Law (the ugly mutt), fine. Feel free to call out- "Fuck me Jude, Fuck me hard" (As if she has ever even uttered the word)

Looking
Ogling another woman is allowed (though one obviously shouldn't be caught looking at another woman).

Unless you share your thoughts- "Wow, I bet the surgeon that did that pair is rich!"

...However, there is a rider: if the lady is naked, the man must have arrived at that situation in a group of people he knows well. Thus, it is OK to be at a titty bar with a bunch of mates - no impropriety there (just a bit of laddish fun). However, it is well out of order to have gone alone. That is just plain wrong.
Oops. My bad.

Touching
Now, this is where it gets tougher. There is an escalating scale....

I think the strip joint is the only place where this is acceptable. Sort of like playing a video game. Fine to lop heads off mutants all day long on the GameBoy but even considering it in public is clearly unacceptable.

Kissing
Now this is one area that gives many people problems. Clearly, exaggerated air kisses are fine. ... So why did I say earlier a frenchie didn't count? We have forgotten one key factor - alcohol. If he has had a few beers, malicious intent is removed... And that is why a snog is fine if you've had more than a couple of snifters.

Rewind that one and play it back. I agree with the background; disagree with the conclusion. Might as well slip that tongue up her fanny (either UK or US) as french anybody but your wife- equally inappropriate. Unless of course your wife is watching (equally drunk) and egging you on. Then by all means proceed.

Penetration
This is where it becomes crystal clear, I'm afraid. Any act of penetration with any appendage (finger, tongue, elbow, cock, amputee stump) is out....

You're just a spoil sport.

Is it infidelity, if your partner never finds out about it?
Of course but it's far worse a crime to let her find out. She hasn't been actually hurt unless she is affected. If she finds out, she will definitely be affected so your crime is greater. Infidelity either way though.

Jay

3:15 pm  
Blogger Jay said...

...
Is it infidelity, if your partner never finds out about it?
One more point, telling makes it easier for you. Keeping the secret should be your lifelong penance.

Jay

3:18 pm  
Blogger Salvatori said...

Great points, Jay.

I still don't agree on snogging. But I'm sure my wife wouldn't agree with me (unless she had suggested it).

I doubt she'd agree with much I'd written here.

5:06 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thinking and doing are two very different things and there is always a choice. Who do you want to be and what kind of relationship do you want? One of love, respect and understanding or maybe some love(?), little or no respect but fear, lies and secrecy? What are your values?

Would you feel ok about your partner acting the same way...even if you "don't know about it", is it ok for you that maybe everyone else around knows?
So take a look at yourself and if you cannot look without making justifications of who you are or how you behave, then that is a big hint...

1:44 am  
Blogger Virgin Slut said...

Intention has a lot to do with it. You could just touch someone with the intention of cheating, and even if it does not go any further, it is still cheating in my book. I know I'm hardcore.

I'm more interested in why people cheat and not how.

Salvatori, how does it feel to keep your secrets from your wife? I assume you haven't told her.

10:32 am  
Blogger tieme-n-spankme said...

I just had to chime in here ...

My husband can look (not that I could stop him if I wanted to - he is alive!) but thankfully he's pretty discreet about it. I am sure he thinks about it, too, but he doesn't share.

But the touching part - it's one thing when people touch an arm or knee when talking/flirting - but that's about where I draw the line (and even that can lead to more). I don't want my husband patting someone else's bum - and I definitely don't want him touching unclothed areas, even at a strip club (the titty bars where I live have a no-touch policy, but I am not very comfortable with the idea of him going to one). I only want him to kiss my bare nipples. Maybe I'm just not confident enough to handle it, but I don't want to touch any other woman in an obviously sexual way. I don't want to share.

Out of curiosity, where would the line be for your wife?

11:29 pm  

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